SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I’m going to be completely straight with you because you’ve been fed enough sweet-tasting lies to last a lifetime. This isn't just a "rough patch" or a mistake. This is one of the most disgusting, calculated stories of betrayal I have ever heard. To have the man she was sleeping with stand at your wedding and watch you dance with your wife is a level of depravity that most people can't even wrap their heads around. She didn’t just cheat; she curated a fifteen-year performance and invited her audience to watch you play the fool. It is sick, and you need to stop waiting for her to suddenly develop a soul.

You need to realize that the woman you think you’re fighting for never existed. She is a phantom. The person who laughs while you’re breaking at a football game is a predator who feeds on your stability while mocking your heart. I truly hope you find the will to leave her, because I cannot see it being good for any person looking to reconcile after this. To stay would be to volunteer for more humiliation. She has proven that she doesn't just lack love for you—she lacks basic human empathy. You cannot "TEAM G" with a person who is passing notes to her lover about your pain in real time.

Stop breaking your back for someone who would use your own truck to drive to another man’s bed. You’ve been a sacrificial lamb for a decade and a half, and it’s time to stop. Being a "good man" doesn't mean being a play thing for a narcissist. Your kids don't need a father who accepts being treated like garbage; they need a father who shows them what it looks like to have boundaries. You are an incredible father and a man of immense value, but you are currently pouring your life-blood into a black hole.

Get your's, Gemmy. Get a lawyer, get your finances locked down, and get her out of your life. The "Future You" who wrote that letter is begging you to stop the bleeding. You are a lighthouse, but even a lighthouse is useless if it’s trying to guide a ship that is intentionally trying to crash into the rocks. You deserve a life that is founded on truth, not a fifteen-year con job.

How are the kids holding up in this house, and do you have a lawyer in Ontario who is ready to play as dirty as she has?

Brutal to read. It resonates deeply. I’m going to copy something I wrote a while back that I think is on topic. This is all a huge mind fuck, yours as thorough as it gets, sadly.

I am a changed man from the betrayal. I’m harder. I’m almost 4 years past D-day, and I think I’m a better person in important ways. You can be too, there is hope.

I believe that when we are in relationship people, we don’t truly and fully see the other person. We have a mental model of that person stored in our brain, and what we mostly experience is an overlay of that model with the real person. And once we know someone well, have observed them for a long time, our model fits and even predicts the other person quite well. When the person does something that surprises us, we update our model (ie get to know them better), and the cycle continues.

Enter a betrayal into this. For me, the incongruence between my model of my wife and the objective reality of my wife completely fractured. My model, my inner understanding of her, could never have predicted what she did. I believe this is a huge source of the mental anguish that betrayed spouses undergo. It’s like a bomb went off in their brain. Now the most important model, the one of their beloved, is obviously wrong, the new information proves that, but we don’t know where to go next. We’re shocked and paralyzed. I just could not take the new information about the affair and use it to update my model about my wife. I wrote endless pages about believing she must have been tricked. Honestly it’s embarrassing to look back at how hard I argued with these good people to try to convince myself that there must have been some circumstances that excused her. And what I was doing was trying to preserve the mental model of the woman I loved and the woman that all my dreams of the future were tied up with.

So then all I could do was watch her. And she absolutely fucking sucked at reconciliation. For all the reasons I’ve listed. And each time she played the victim and lied and failed to have basic human empathy in the face of the pain she caused me, she forced me to keep nudging my mental model in a worse and worse direction. And now after two years of abysmal behavior, I know think very very poorly of her. And from that vantage point, I am now reinterpreting our life together. I think she has always been mostly like this. She might have taken a turn for the worse after a traumatic event, but it wasn’t a day and night shift.

Post #20:

Wife,

I am pretty sure she is here and trying to get help to make amends for the situation she caused.

At least she takes accountability, that’s a first step.

But, we *don't* know that she takes accountability. We absolutely do not, not even close. And so I think it is really destructive to tell the OP that his WS is on here trying to make amends.

There in fact have been waywards whose betrayed spouses are on here that is, who've seem to have used SI as a sort of public relations tour. As in they come on here and say how much they want to make amends, but then accounts from the betrayed spouse say in fact only much less work has been done by WS. Whether they the WS are really taking amends will be in whether they take the advice given on here, and even much more so than this, from the accounts of the betrayed spouse.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 11:36 PM, Thursday, April 30th]

Gemmy, we never outgrow our belief in fairy tales. Up to age 9/10 we believe in Santa, the tooth fairy, even the ridiculous Easter bunny. Once that magical thinking looks over it simply morphs into crushes on the prettiest girl, the football player, the genius geek. None of them can live up to our expectations but we hang on to the need to worship something or someone. (This is not referencing religion)so look at the politicians who looked to be perfect, or the good looking movie star who has fake teeth, noses, hair, etc.
What I read is your absolute belief that, contrary to the clear evidence, your wife will become a different person. How? How does someone who has lived, and thought, a certain way become a completely different human being? I guess it has been done. I don’t know a single one who has had an altered personality.
What you need to do is look at how to live with who and what she is. She might be able to change how she acts, and I hope she does, but don’t set yourself up for disappointment. It might be, instead of 100% change, you get 50% change. It might be that occasionally you can see 70 or 80% change, but can it be sustained? That’s what you need to be realistic about. I wish you the best.

But, we *don't* know that she takes accountability. We absolutely do not, not even close. And so I think it is really destructive to tell the OP that his WS is on here trying to make amends.

The OP informed about his wife joining here.

They agreed not to read each other posts and to find their own healing separately.
I thought I will be mindful not to link what I reply to one to the other to respect Gemmy’s desire.

We don’t know how another person feel. Sometimes we don’t even know what exactly we do feel, so no one is assuming that it the truth.

We can only observe facts.

She telling the bad stuff she did to her husband is a step in the right direction, even if it is just that for now, is taking accountability for her actions.

We’ll see what follows, it’s on her to change and it’s on him to see if those changes will be enough.
All I can offer is feedback and empathy but NOT my emotions, because I’m am not into their relationship.

Sure they are elicited by stories, but I’m keeping those to my self.
The man needs to get out of his suffering, that’s always the goal, the rest is irrelevant

She is in IC but I think they are working more on her childhood and the why then how to help me. Makes sense as I should help myself I suppose.

My W signed a release allowing her IC to talk with me. In our case, W's IC became our MC, and the release allowed anything my W said in IC to be brought into MC sessions, at the C's discretion. You can't do that, but you can ask for the release and ask for periodic joint sessions to keep you up to date.

What help do you want from your W? What will you do if she doesn't or can't provide that help?

You aren't doomed if your W doesn't help you. Healing is something you do on your own behalf. You don't have to do it - healing is necessary for thriving after being betrayed, but you don't have to do it. Your W can't make the pain go away.

Do not count on your W to help. The best she can do is change from betrayer to good partner. That's her work to do, and she's the only one who can do it.

What you do now is for your future. Bringing an ap - and spouse - to your wedding is an egregious boundary violation. Revealing an A after you revealed something deeply personal is a terrible violation. Texting a current ap while talking about a previous ap is a terrible boundary violation. They're in the past, though. Now your best bet is to exorcise the residual thoughts and feelings. You can do that, and you'll be glad you did. But you don't need your W's help to do it. A good IC, yes; your W, no.

You heal you.
Your WS heals themself.
Together, you heal your M, if you both ant to.

*****

Your W may be in the process of becoming a good partner. Time will tell.

*****

I urge you to avoid living in the past. Yes, your W's As have brought immense pain into your life. She victimized you. But you don't have to take on a Victim role in life. It takes work to stop ruminating about what she did, but her As are about her and her issues, not about you or any issue with what you did or did not do.

Even if she thinks she cheated out of anger at you, her A's are not about the real you - they're about her image of you.

*****

IMO, the people who do best after infidelity are those who take responsibility for themselves and take advantage of the options open to them. It's the people who say to themselves something like, 'I'm not going to let this ruin the rest of my life. I'll do _____ instead.'

It looks like that's what you're doing, so you've made a good start on healing, IMO.

@sisoon

I am healing myself and trying to help her heal as limited as my tank is for that. I am encouraging when I notice her changing and honestly doing my very best to hold the family together. I just do not know as of yet, if the insane behavior over so long a period, I am able to look forward without resentment.
I told her about sexual abuse in my childhood when she decided to tell me the affair happened, so I feel i am suited to not play the victim as she was the first person I have ever told. Her added sexual deviance certainly did not help with this but I will be fine. I know it's not my fault, I have not lost self esteem nor self worth.

You do have to heal yourself Gemmy. But I have absolutely no idea how anyone can heal while at the same time putting any energy towards R with a partner who has betrayed you the way your WW has. I'm not even sure why you would even WANT to R, to be frank.

A chance at R would be requiring YOU to take basically ALL of the risks, and your WW to get all of the BENEFITS. You would be GIVING another chance and your WW would be GETTING another chance. You gotta remember something man: If you and she were to D, you would be free of being with a woman who has proven herself severely disloyal to you. You would be free to find a woman who would be faithful to you. Whereas your WW would not get the respectability of staying a married woman and her story would make it very difficult for her to find someone else.

It really would go a long way if your WW were to show her sincerity that she truly wants YOU by giving you a D with terms favorable to you.
And then you and she can try R after that if you want.

...honestly doing my very best to hold the family together.

This is as admirable as it gets.

It seems to me that I have a slightly different take on R than most betrayed spouses. To me, when it comes to reconciliation, the wayward spouse has a much more difficult journey. I've long held the belief that, at its core, infidelity is self-destructive. We, the betrayed, are collateral damage.

Yes, that damage is truly profound. It hits hard and it hits deep. Recovering is often the most challenging thing any of us will ever have to do. Healing from the severe emotional and psychological trauma takes years. Several years. Even then, as healed as we can be, the ways in which it changes us take years to fully grasp and integrate.

We eventually learn to accept that the betrayals were not our fault and had absolutely nothing at all to do with who we are. It’s never personal.

A wayward spouse, on the other hand, has to come to terms with the simple truth that they have destroyed their own lives. No one did this to them. They cannot blame anyone but themselves.

Hopefully, your WW will one day realize the Faustian nature of the bargain she made with herself; short-term and superficial gains for the price of her "soul." Climbing out of that hell - one of her own creation - will be the hardest thing she'll ever have to do (if she's willing and capable).

Your story, Gemmy, is certainly one of the most heartbreaking I've seen here. And while it may seem as if your entire relationship was never real, please keep in mind that you were real all along. And that, dear sir, is a very important distinction.

Hopefully, your WW will one day realize the Faustian nature of the bargain she made with herself; short-term and superficial gains for the price of her "soul." Climbing out of that hell - one of her own creation - will be the hardest thing she'll ever have to do (if she's willing and capable).

I have seen some signs of her trying at the very least. She takes full responsibility in private at a bare minimum. I believe she is willing, but capable will show in time I suppose.

I think she is deeply enmeshed with her family and they keep telling her it is at least 50% my fault for her straying. Even knowing it was so early in our relationship. I think this will be the sticky point in our reconciliation, I could never tell her to not talk or see her toxic family. I can also never open her eyes to the things I see so clearly. Her father has been absolutely savage to me since DDay, he took my two oldest children against my will, he then tried alienating me to them, then puts all the blame on me. We had a talk with them about boundaries around the children, and my WW sat quiet while they blamed me openly and told us that if the kids hear them alienating me it can't be helped.

This is probably going to be the make or break of our R and I can not do anything about this but hold my own boundaries and try.

We had a talk with them about boundaries around the children, and my WW sat quiet while they blamed me openly and told us that if the kids hear them alienating me it can't be helped.

FUCK THAT NOISE. It can be helped by them shutting their goddamn mouths. And if they can’t do that, then they can be denied access to the kids. That goes for any parenting boundaries you want, not just this insanity. Like, if I told my in-laws I don’t want my kids watching a particular show, or eating ice cream after 6, if they want to be around their grandkids they comply or they won’t have the ability to not comply.

I don’t see why you can’t tell her that her parents are unwelcome with the kids until they can respect your boundaries. That wouldn’t be a problem for my W or for me.

As for blaming you - are they in possession of all the facts here???

As for blaming you - are they in possession of all the facts here???

Enough, they even know she brought him to the wedding. Remember though it is her parents, right or wrong. She went back and told them in private that they will lose all access if they break "MY" boundaries and that I am threatening full custody. So it looks like I am controlling and threatening, this is just something she can't do standing up to her family. This is why I believe this will be the undoing of our R attempt.

Do not get me wrong she is trying hard in all other aspects I believe, she is even on here now and hopefully using the sound advice of the community. Family is a hard one to deal with, I am fully no contact with her family moving forward. I just feel it may cause resentment in her over time when they are not welcome in our home again. I will never cut contact with the children unless they force it upon me.

Here are the facts that I see. You believe in fairytales and your wife was brought up in a toxic environment. That is a witches brew of a mess. I’ve said this a blue zillion times on this forum. You can’t fix another person. You cannot change another person. That person has to be willing to fix themselves and how can she do it when she still hangs around that gosh awful family of hers. If you’re going to save your marriage, you guys are going to have to give up that family completely. She needs unbelievably intense therapy to unwind the craziness they have wrapped her up in and you be sure and get your kids away from them. Whew! What an absolute horror you have married into.

...my WW sat quiet while they blamed me openly...

She went back and told them in private that they will lose all access if they break "MY" boundaries...

Yikes! That's not a good sign.

Whatever issues your WW has that lead her down Infidelity Lane are the very same issues that have been tripping her up for most of her life. As clichéd as it might sound, much of these are family of origin issues (foo shit).

If she's earnestly willing and able to own and fix her shit, this is going to include addressing her foo shit, too.

You cannot force her to choose between you and her parents. That's a no-win scenario. You can, however, establish and enforce your own boundaries with them, even if that's sadly reduced to an emphatic "fuck-off!"

Speak your truth quietly and clearly, to both your in-laws and you wife. What they choose to do with that information is on them and beyond your control.

I just feel it may cause resentment in her over time when they are not welcome in our home again.

That is her issue to deal with, not yours. I think it boils down to empathy. Whether she chooses to respect, to empathize with, your thoughts and feelings about this will tell you what you need to know about the likelihood of reconciliation.

It won't be easy for her, but it's a choice she will have to make one way or another - yet another difficult consequence of her choices and actions.

Gemmy,

Did you ever find out the total number of men that your WW slept with during your marriage. Sorry if I missed it in your posts but from reading what I could, I get the feeling it was more than the 2 men (1 while dating and soon after marriage and another more recent one that ended in October according to your WW. But you also wrote at one point that she was unfaithful for the entire 14-year marriage...so more than 2?

Real quick.. 1)have you consulted with a family attorney? Have you retained an attorney yet? I see that at one point you had a separation agreement signed- was this done with an attorney or was it pro se (you did it yourself) 2)Do you have a VAR to record contact with your WW and her family.. your initial confrontation leading to law enforcement involvement and the resulting mess should have hopefully taught you to protect yourself in documenting your WW's conversations... this should also include conversations with her family...document everything. I highly advise doing both of these.

I think she is deeply enmeshed with her family and they keep telling her it is at least 50% my fault for her straying. Even knowing it was so early in our relationship. I think this will be the sticky point in our reconciliation, I could never tell her to not talk or see her toxic family. I can also never open her eyes to the things I see so clearly. Her father has been absolutely savage to me since DDay, he took my two oldest children against my will, he then tried alienating me to them, then puts all the blame on me. We had a talk with them about boundaries around the children, and my WW sat quiet while they blamed me openly and told us that if the kids hear them alienating me it can't be helped.

So, if y'all stay together, the next time your WW burns the dinner or forgets to do something, it'll be okay for you to get a side-piece or a girlfriend? That's how I'd respond to her family when they start to blame you.

Do your children have an inkling as to their mother's affairs? Also, what are their ages? I haven't read where you posted how old they are. Big difference in toddlers and 8-12 years old. They obviously know something is going on between the two of you if they're older than toddlers but have they overheard the specifics? If they don't know that mommy had boyfriend(s) that's a heck of a card to be holding up your sleeve. Even if they kind of have an idea that mother was unfaithful I'm sure they don't know the specifics. Obviously hopefully you have an attorney to consult with but you may want to imply to your WW's family that if the alienation continues the children will learn the entire extent of their mom's actions at an age-appropriate time and if they're around the age of 10 that time is rapidly approaching. If your WW and FIL continue the alienation and blame-shifting, a subtle implication that the children will soon learn all the details as to why mom and dad split may end their actions or at least curtail them.

You may want to start considering your immediate family as only you and your children, Gemmy. It's not up to you to 'heal' your WW only she can do that. From your recent post in reconciliation, I get the feeling that the shit-sandwich you're trying to swallow and accept may just be too big for you. There is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with feeling that way. There is no one true way to recover or reconcile after an affair. There is no fool-proof strategy that if you do 'X,' and your WW does 'Z' it adds up to 'Z' and a successful reconciliation and marriage. Recovery for Betrayeds comes in all sorts of form... divorce, separation or reconciliation. The way to recovery is as varied. You may choose to start or continue the separation (it's unclear what the living situation is presently); may even divorce your WW and then at a later time after some time apart, if you choose, you may be open to starting a new relationship with her. There's nothing wrong with this approach at all. In fact, I think the most successful reconciliation stories usually comprise most of these elements. After a time apart and detachment, the BS comes to understand that their love for the wayward and the need for the wayward to be in their life fully is so strong that they can accept the wayward back, overcome their past actions and are willing to accept the risk of future betrayal. This also has the added benefit of avoiding the later regret of not taking immediate action to end the first marriage. You don't want to be back here posting in 2, 5 or 10+ years about how you continue to wrestle with regret. Life is way too short for that.

Gemmy, I think I read your wife's version of this on this site, it sounds very similar so I assume it's from her. I responded and I'm basically going to say the same thing here. My own belief is, when someone cheats from the very start, in the other case, the woman admitted she was cheating on her boyfriend/fiance even during their engagement for a year (something like that) and then she invites this BUM to the wedding....because he is a BUM of course.....who would even GO to a wedding where you've been cheating on the groom. That is DISGUSTING. It was disgusting to invite him and disgusting for him to attend.

In these kinds of cases where a fiance/ee or spouse has been cheating before, during or within a short while after marriage (I'd say a few years at least), I don't think there was ever real love here. Please don't just take that personally, the fault is on HER side. She should NEVER have been involved with you or married you when she was obviously in love with another guy. That's why she invited him to the wedding, so he'd be like a proxy for the groom, IMO. It is such an incredibly disrespectful thing to do and it should not be forgiven, frankly. I would not forgive this if it were me. It's a basic statement about the relationship from the beginning.

And I do think this is always the situation when I hear of something like this. For some reason, he or she couldn't land the one they're having the affair with, who is Plan A....so they decide Plan B is pretty good, I'll go with him or her. This is more common, alas, than you think. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with YOU....there is something wrong with HER and she married a guy she wasn't really in love with. My mother did this - her fiance died tragically and she in a year or 2 married my father whom she did not love because she wanted kids and unlike yours, it was a marriage from hell. She thought he would be good enough to start with, but that's not how it ended up. She never loved him and it tainted the marriage in such bad ways. It sounds like you and she were able to make it work until she probably met someone who reminded her of the first guy many years later. Or that she was never really in love with you, but was fond of you, likes you, respects you, basically the kinds of feelings we might have for a friend...but not a spouse. So my point is....there was never any marriage on her side to begin with. She was never married to you except legally, and she still isn't. She's probably afraid now of losing all the things you two built, especially what you have built for her.

I don't know how someone can evaluate this...sometimes you just come to the realization that this person does not love you in the way you need or want to be loved, or in a way that you regard as "married". Some might find that good enough, I don't think it is, but a lot of us end up that way....we make do. You sound like a romantic, emotional guy who feels things deeply and I don't think you should make do. YOU SHOULD GET A DIVORCE. Not because you're wife is a "bad" person....I think she made a terrible decision in marrying you, not because of you but because of her own feelings. And you can see even now HOW INSENSITIVE SHE IS TO YOU SAYING SHE INVITED THIS POS TO YOUR WEDDING BECAUSE SHE CARED ABOUT HIM. Someone who loves the person they are about to marry DOES NOT DO THAT. EVER. World without end, amen.

This is very painful...other people have been through it.....I sometimes recommend movies to people that I think they might relate to or get a lesson from, in your case perhaps it would be the Bette Davis movie "The Letter'....where a very nice guy, probably a wonderful husband, discovers ultimately that his wife never loved him. It is what it is, no matter how she lies to you now, out of fear.

It's scary to start over, but you have a lot to work with and I don't think you'd have too much trouble finding someone else frankly who really WOULD love you, as you should be. Don't make do - go for the gold ring. I often did not and I regret it now. Look what you did in this marriage - the best thing you did - you had THREE GREAT KIDS and that's the best thing, IMO, anyone can do. They are jewels without price and they will always be in your life. Forget her, be civil, but invest in THEM. Not the marriage because there never was a marriage from the start. But there are 3 great kids that came out of this and that's a wonderful thing. I don't have kids, I was not lucky, I envy you. As hard as I know it is to be part time, make it the best time and do as much as you can with them. Not just for them, but with them, so they learn from you and you support each other and make memories together. Your future is with your kids. I would not even bother attempting reconciling here. What do you really have to work with? She's never been in love with you.

I say this bluntly because I want to be honest and I think so many people are NOT in these situations and yet it is critical to clearly assess the past to know what we can achieve in the future. Maybe she can fall in love with you but you just found her cheating again and that is because something is lacking in her or for her. She'll cheat again, IMO, because she hasn't found what she's looking for. If she does, that's up to HER. You should free yourself of this and make a good life on your own. You can find another woman who will adore you, and you can have a great time raising your kids and being proud of them.
DON'T MAKE DO OR TRY MAKE THE SILK PURSE OUT OF THE SOW'S EAR. LOOK FOR THE SILK. DON'T COMPROMISE ON WHAT YOU REALLY IN YOUR HEART WANT. Go for it as long as you are able.

Your kids are the gift from this marriage. Thank your wife for them and move on.

My advice to any married couple, forget whether there’s infidelity in the mix, is that you have to present a united front to the in-laws. Just like you present a united front to the kids. You can’t have the kids ask mom for permission to do something, get a "no" and then go get a "yes" from dad. Everyone understands this, even if you don’t always agree on the decision. Same with setting boundaries with the in-laws.

Anyway, how is it "Gemmy’s" boundary that they don’t try to alienate you from your kids? That’s not her boundary too? WTF?

I think part of the mess she needs to clean up is rehabilitating your image with her family, regardless of whether you ever speak to any one of them again. That’s part of being a married team as well, sticking up for each other.

Unhinged is right, you can’t force her to choose between you and her folks, but the key concept there is ‘you forcing’. She still may have to choose, if they are not going to be friends of your marriage.

[This message edited by Letmebefrank at 9:41 PM, Wednesday, May 6th]

@BondJaneBond

The original AP she brought to my wedding was 40 years her senior. He is 83 years old now (jokingly but kind of truthful) I wish she had chosen him, but he also brought his wife as the +1.

THe age doesn't matter, Gemmy. If it's the same story I read from the Wayward's side (it sounds like your wife's story) she was cheating on you for much of your pre-marriage relationship with this guy, even during the engagement. And then invited him to the wedding - so maybe if it's the same story, she couldn't be with him because he was already married. Is that the same story as yours? Maybe it's not, maybe it's just an extremely similar story. But if that IS the same story....then that's the guy she wanted to be with, regardless of age. Some women like Daddies.

It likely is my wife you saw, hopeless something. We are not reading each other's so we have a safe place. I brought up the age because she was 26 he was 66, grandfather age. I don't think he was ever a plan A but I certainly was a plan B