SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Should this be posted elsewhere? Let me know the admins and the community.
This is some background of where I left off...(https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=665499&HL=83887)

Please skip if you are a judgmental person. This is very vulnerable.

So, going back very quickly to 1 month after DD, I was on a retreat by myself, and I could tell the husband of the teacher was interested in me. I talked to him about investments and such, but only when his wife was around and kept it very professional. Well, it's been 21 months, and I could see him looking at my profile on social media. I reached out, and we started chatting very casually. He eventually asked me for pics, I said no.
Now, I'm not a madhatter because my WH is aware of everything right? Last week, I asked if I could flirt with this person, and he said it was fine. I think this was initiated because of this (https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=665559&HL=83887), my WH instant messaging the OW some mild flirtatious stuff, and just not understanding. So the flirting with the 3rd has been nice, and I asked if my WH would mind me sharing some personal stuff between us with this 3rd person. Apparently, sharing my experiences and fantasies between my WH and I, with this 3rd person does it for me - who knew.

This is dangerous territory, isn't it? I mean, I am benefitting because I'm feeling more awake and alive in my life, it is benefiting my WH, and it's not really about the 3rd person at all. For me, it's about sharing it with this person and this person deriving pleasure from my WH and I's experiences. But I'm concerned about where this goes. Is this another way to override my body saying no to my spouse? Like, am I just getting so turned on that my inhibitions are overridden?
Does this make sense?
Be gentle but real with me.
I've read threads on here that this sort of flirting with monogomish? is an exit ramp. I will say I have not been obsessed with being in limbo at all. I do think I always need to be ruminating about something, though, and maybe this is that? But maybe I'm learning something along the way.

Please know that I'm not trying to be hurtful and combative, and that the following is said in your best interests.

First, you're not "trying not to become a Madhatter"; you already are one. You're in a full-blown EA with another woman's husband. You know what you're doing is wrong. Even though your husband is aware of and consenting to your relationship with this man, his wife did not, which makes you an OW. And if he said she did agree to it, I wouldn't take the odds that was true to Vegas.

Second, this is "benefitting" your husband not just because it's having a positive effect on your sex life, but because you're sinking down to his level. He gets to feel a little bit less bad about his affair because he knows you're willing and able to step out on him, even if you haven't had sex with anyone else (yet). And whether you want to believe this or not, you're writing him a blank check to betray you again in the future.

Third, the feeling of "being awake and alive" is pure fantasy and based only in the need for self-validation from another person. When this situation goes bad (and it will) you're going to crash down very hard from the "high" and you'll be much worse off than you were before. The reality is that there's nothing special about you or this relationship with OM. I'm sure you're not the first woman this guy has hit on during a retreat and you won't be the last.

If you want to flirt and experience "new relationship energy" with other people, do so as a single woman with single men. No good will come from continuing your EA... not for your marriage nor for you as a person.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:00 PM, Monday, May 12th]

Oh, lesser.

Blue is of course right.

No judgment here. I understand how this happens, but it’s escapism. This is going to escalate until it becomes another thing for you to have to heal from.

You are trying to fill a void. The void is likely a combination of never truly loving yourself enough to demand more from your life. You have tried to compromise until you have been twisted into a pretzel and have denied yourself years of joy and happiness in these compromises. Some of it coming from your fear of changing it and getting out of your comfort zone.

Now you have given your husband a very mixed message about what you deem appropriate and not appropriate. Which he didn’t need extra confusion.

Unfortunately this behavior becomes addictive.after being unhappy for so long the happy brain chemicals will flood you and that’s what is making you feel like being sexual with your husband. Unfortunately what happens is you have to keep escalating the behaviors to get the same high feelings. And then when it has to stop, which it inevitably will, you will find yourself in a deeper depression than you have ever known. After my affair I could not function. And it wasn’t because of AP it was because I was devoid of these highs I felt.

My advice is stop. Try and find ways to produce happy endorphins naturally to offset the withdrawal. Exercise, what you eat, and being in nature are universal ones. Also doing things you love.

No judgement- only knowing from my own experience, this is very very bad for you. Get out of this situation now. Immediately. And deal with the issues without escapism.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:12 PM, Monday, May 12th]

My memory on this is vague, but a fWS who used to post here wrote often of her A. She set a 'boundary' - either her H step up, or she was going to cheat. He didn't she did - and lived to regret it.

I found her insights, sensitivity, and generosity with sharing her experience very helpful to my own healing, but I could have done without it. She debased herself. She did a lot of work on herself afterwards, but I'm sorry she put herself through the need to heal herself.

Look, you already know the problem - you want validation from someone outside yourself. That's not how validation works. You need to learn to validate yourself. That's the way to change from cheater to good partner.

IIRC, Shirley Glass identifies 3 elements to an EA: 1) secrecy; 2) inappropriate sharing; 3) sexual tension. You describe doing only one of those, so far, with 'permission' to start the 2nd. Personally, I think you're on the slippery slope, not yet in an EA.

BTW, the permissions you need have to come from yourself. You're the only one who can OKyour violating your boundaries.

Stop! Protect yourself!

I think that's why I immediately posted here, because I know you are all correct.

Bluer - To clarify a couple of things....his wife is aware, and this is okay in their relationship as long as it doesn't become an EA or PA. They do this with others, so Bluer, you are correct,t this is regular for this OM. Although I guess he very well could be lying, but at the retreat, she kind of gave him permission from what I saw.

Hikingout - I'm glad you responded, I was hoping for your thoughts, and they are exactly what I was worried about and why I posted. I didn't think about the mixed message I'm giving to my WH, nor this possibly making him feel less bad about his infidelities.

Reflections:
I do think this "high" is replacing my pain shopping/obsessive ruminating about limbo, and it's a very effective distraction. I've been trying so hard to get happy endorphins elsewhere and just really struggling not going back to all this.

I wonder if I'm trying to sabotage my marriage or make him feel comfortable to step out again?

More later I'm sure.

Bluer - To clarify a couple of things....his wife is aware, and this is okay in their relationship as long as it doesn't become an EA or PA. They do this with others, so Bluer, you are correct,t this is regular for this OM. Although I guess he very well could be lying, but at the retreat, she kind of gave him permission from what I saw.

Again, if you're having intimate conversations with the OM, you're already in an EA. There's no way around that.

Also, in your original post, you said that kept you conversations with him at the retreat professional and only conversed with him while his wife is around... so I don't get how that translates to his wife giving him the OK to flirt with and have sexually charged conversations with you.

Further, I wouldn't trust a guy that uses professional retreats at which his wife is an instructor as "hunting grounds" for APs. If his wife's credibility and reputation are in any way important to her, there's a snowball's chance in Hell that she's OK with his behavior.

You're a smart woman, lessthinking. Don't lower your IQ by 10 points to justify doing what you know is wrong.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 5:35 PM, Monday, May 12th]

It’s how I always explain it- outside parties are often used as a coping mechanism.

It’s human, but we just don’t want you to be destructive to yourself or anyone else in what you use to cope.

Perhaps if you like it’s helping your sex life you could possibly see a sex therapist ?

I don’t remember if you do IC but I found that helpful as well.

Are you sure she allows him to do this, because I have seen people be lied to like this. Plenty of people have unknowingly hurt the bs who they thought gave their blessing.

I am glad you posted.

No, I'm not 100% certain. Thank you. This is not easy to share, most people would not get it at all, even many therapists. Yes, lots of IC, but I took a break as getting nowhere (been to sex therapist, IFS, EFT, CBT, couples, betrayal, etc.).

I just want to feel like this with my husband without a 3rd party person, without a drink or two, or other things to feel less inhibited. 8/7 will be 2 years and I made this a date in my head that I should be able to lean in at least sometimes.

I've had a little cancer scare too, which looks to be nothing, but I did go 3 weeks thinking about my mortality. One of my biggest fears over the years has been that I decide to leave my spouse, and I get cancer. I still need one last follow-up to get the total clear. Maybe that has triggered this as well.

I am sorry, I know you have had a hard time. I think you keep trying to make it work with your husband and maybe he is just not a turn on because of his issues.

If this is the path you still want to stay on try reading erotica. It sounds like you are just getting your appetite from a stimulus, try changing the stimulus. And by the way, I don’t think it’s abnormal to need to feed your sex drive with things. Just gotta pick things that are not outside people.

Maybe it does it for you to be verbal or writing out fantasies too. I think long term relationships do well with a little novelty mixed in. One of my go tos when th in he need a boost is sex where you might (but very unlikely) be caught. Hiking is one of my hobbies so use your imagination there!!! We have even pulled over to the bank while kayaking in more deserted areas. I think there are ways, be spontaneous.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:03 AM, Tuesday, May 13th]

No, I'm not 100% certain. Thank you. This is not easy to share, most people would not get it at all, even many therapists.

You definitely came to the right place. There's no better forum for discussing the ways that your brain starts to deceive you along with everyone else. I'm a world class expert at running those lines of simultaneous, incompatible thought.

Logically, it can't both be true that his wife is totally on board with what he's doing and yet at the same time, you have to avoid doing it anywhere that she might notice. Your interactions can't have all the hallmarks of an EA and yet not be an EA. By your own account, his wife only saw professional behavior from you at the retreat. Even if she shrugged off mild flirting, that can't be taken as consent for you to email sexual fantasies with her husband more than a year later.

I am benefitting because I'm feeling more awake and alive in my life, it is benefiting my WH, and it's not really about the 3rd person at all.

Affairs are never about the AP. Betrayed spouses often have a hard time wrapping their head around that, but it's true. Attraction can be about the AP, but the ability to betray someone, whether your own spouse or someone else's, is solely about the person engaging in the betrayal.

Affairs are never about the AP. Betrayed spouses often have a hard time wrapping their head around that, but it's true. Attraction can be about the AP, but the ability to betray someone, whether your own spouse or someone else's, is solely about the person engaging in the betrayal.

I would add that it ignites a bit of seeing yourself with a different lens. And for me that was probably the most surprising part. My affair was almost all self experimentation on being someone I am usually not. I am wondering if this too is part of the appeal that you might want to look at. You have been likely having to suppress the "fun you" the "sexy you" because you have had to be the parent role so much in this relationship. Someone seeing you as a sexual being that doesn’t come with needing your guidance or creating the internal chaos your husband stirs in you.

I don’t follow Esther Pearl on much but I do believe one thing that she says is true: people often have affairs to meet a different version of yourself. I think it would be nice if you found ways of letting your hair down. Not like this, and not for your husband. But for you to feel that connection with who you are underneath all this burden you have been under. I do not mean that to sound as if your husband has caused this. I mean it in the way to help you find your way back to you. Take some time to have some fun and be intentional with yourself.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:12 AM, Tuesday, May 13th]

I would add that it ignites a bit of seeing yourself with a different lens. And for me that was probably the most surprising part. My affair was almost all self experimentation on being someone I am usually not.

This too, 100%. I've said before that I was having an affair with myself as much as with the OM. He was single, so I didn't have to deceive myself about the consent of his wife or GF, but I spent a lot of energy ignoring or justifying other red flags about him. I loved seeing myself through his eyes, and I suspect that my appeal to him was much the same.

We might be able to find some argument about if action that is known of and condoned by all stakeholders (lessthinkin and her husband, OM and his wife...) is cheating. We could drown in that debate, and maybe never reach an unanimous conclusion.

However to me that’s not the issue...

The real issue would be this:

Is this behavior helping or hurting your marriage?

Not you as an individual, nor your husband as an individual. But the MARRIAGE.

This is important – to understand the difference. This might be some quick-fix pick-me-up for you after the rejection of infidelity. Affirmation that you still have something to offer.

This might be some quick-fix for him: You too cheat, so you two are at the same moral level.

But is it good for the marriage?

I sincerely doubt it is.

In all issues about opening a marriage the way you two seem to be inadvertently doing the key factor from those that (claim) to have done so successfully is that at the base they have a sound marriage.

You don’t...

I would completely block this man and his wife. Completely.

Then focus on your marriage. Get that to where you want it – be that reconciled or to the phase where you are both content with divorce.

--

I have to add: I find it a bit cheesy and suspicious that a guide at a course should show this behavior...

OK – if this was true love of the smitten kind. But here we have someone that seems to maintain and even groom a relationship for exactly where he is now. It’s about as stereotypical as the English Professor in the movies, with the tweed jacket with patches on the elbow, sleeping with a graduate student and already with a freshman in sight...

[This message edited by SI Staff at 1:58 PM, Tuesday, May 13th]

It's ended, I knew you were all correct, which is why I posted. Even after just a few days of chatting, stopping feels like taking a drug away, so that's obviously a dead give that it wasn't healthy or sustainable. Thank you all

I always like to learn from situations and experiences, so one small takeaway is the idea of attraction. I know attraction is more than looks; knowing and feeling are two different things. I was convinced I wouldn't ever be attracted to someone if I left my WH. I don't daydream/fantasize about others, I generally don't feel attraction really at all, and looking around feels grim.
I didn't find this person objectively attractive when we met or even for a long time after. But even just the few small exchanges that started to shift. It was helpful for me to feel that part of myself, even for just a moment, to believe in that relational attraction again.
It may also be information to confirm why I'm not feeling that way towards my spouse as it doesn't really go very deep (not that he doesn't try or want to). Anyway...just been thinking as an overthinker does.

Fellow overthinker here.

I think that while the circumstance wasn’t ideal, there are things to be learned. After my affair I really had to dissect a lot of things. I looked for what it was I was seeking, and a lot of things like that.

I am like you, I do not experience physical attraction to people. I never ogled men, or thought about them in sexual ways. I might see an attractive man and know he is good looking but that is the extent of it. I am a person who needs to know someone first and then the attraction grows. It’s more about their personality, and also I need to feel the chemistry which is hard to define- it’s there or it isn’t. I think a lot of people are like this. I didn’t recognize an attraction with my husband in the beginning but the more I got to know him I felt the chemistry and I really liked who he was. By the time we we were officially dating I wanted him daily and sometimes more.

My ap was a lot older than me, and my affair started because I liked how he made me feel about myself. That is much different than how it was with my husband. I mean my husband didn’t make me feel badly about myself, what I mean is that was the only feeling I got with the ap. Not chemistry, or even liking who he was. I didn’t know him like that. It was me replacing how I should feel about myself.

I think that your husbands tendencies have exacerbated feelings in you that make you not feel desirable or enough. What I have learned is I have to make myself feel good about me. I had the parent child dynamic in my first marriage, and it makes you feel…old is the word that comes to mind, but that’s not right. Hopefully you just know what I mean.

Seeing a different version of yourself could really spark a lot of things for you in your healing journey. While we don’t want it to be through the method it came, I absolutely think you should learn from the clues.

After my affair, I saw I wanted to feel younger and sexier, so I started getting active and eating better. Then I didn’t need a person to make me artificially feel that way. (It’s not like I believed it deep down anyway) I wanted to have more fun and better life balance (I was inundated with responsibility and didn’t seek out time to let my hair down) we started going out more to concerts and hiking more again, getting out in the river. Engaging with each other again instead of both of us wall-to-wall working all the time was important not just to our relationship but to my desire.

I have read that female sexuality is responsive, which is why a lot of us are not the strongest initiators. I realized some of the ways he always initiated wasn’t optimal to get my interest. (My husband is a wonderful lover but he would usually initiate by coming to bed naked or by poking me in the leg or back to let me know it was ready to go! This immediately caused me to freeze up because I hadn’t even considered if I wanted to have sex and now I felt on the hook for it- not a great way to loosen up! But it had worked all the years for him because I almost never turned him down) I also learned to feed my sex drive other ways and initiate more on my own.

All this to say, what works for you is normal. If attraction isn’t the initial thing, it’s because you need to get to know someone if you divorce and try and date.

As far as reconciling to date I think you haven’t wanted sex with your husband because you don’t trust him, and also the parent child dynamic is known to be a major sex drive killer. You may have learned you still like having sex with him despite these other things through this activity. Honestly if you are to reconcile you are going to have to figure out this parent child thing and the trust thing, and neither of those things are fully in your realm of control.

I do promise though, staying with him because you don’t think you would find a relationship with someone else or feel attraction for someone else is really just your comfort zone lying to you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:37 PM, Thursday, May 15th]